Podcast 194 Transcript

A transcript for Episode 194: Wait, are we going to be on camera? (2024-11-13).

Pronoiac ran the podcast through Whisper: whisper.cpp 1.4.0, large model, small tinydiarize model.

So far:

• it doesn't do summary keywords
• it splits by speaker, but it doesn't try to label
• no timestamps - fixed!
• no custom dictionary

Transcript

00:00:00 ♪ Medi-filter podcasts Medi-filter podcasts just a minute. Loop. Please commence the show. ♪

Hey everyone and welcome to the long overdue Medi-filter podcast uh small fundraiser you ask we answer. I'm here with Loop. We are uh remind me loop in the same time zone or different time zone?

00:00:32 Why not uh you are one and we're ahead. So it's three p for me.

00:00:37 We are we are d far away but close in time and uh I'm looking over to Luke's shoulder at all of those wonderful plants as we uh enter stick season in Vermont which is sort of after all the leaves fall off but before uh the snow falls.

00:00:54 So beautiful you, know I haven't like I used to go to countries that have like four seasons generally for fall beginning of the winter which people find it weird I. just love it 'cause I never had it myself right, And so this year I'm like oh no I'm, gonna miss that I'm, not gonna see any of that it's, beautiful.

00:01:16 Yeah. Yeah, exactly. We we have at least six seasons here, in Vermont, and I'm thankful for every single one of them. I did a um as you know we just had elections in the U_S_ but we had local elections, and I make little ballots for children so that they have something to do while their parents uh vote because, it's very boring being in the basement of town hall, and one of the uh things they could vote on was dragon versus unicorn, which you know important important issues of our time, and the other one was summer versus winter, which I assumed would be closer, but like winter definitely came out ahead of summer, which surprised me a little 'cause I would think little kids wouldn't wanna be cold, but maybe little kids love snow.

00:02:04 Yeah. I guess they care about that much much more than we do.

00:02:16 Yeah, good point. Like it's definitely like holiday season and kids probably associate it with yeah, good stuff uh, better snacks uh, yeah. They yeah they don't have to pay the heat bill, they're fine.

00:02:32 Yeah. I was thinking about it as I was going through the to the pictures of the gala and the thing is I just miss the U_S_ recently. It's like Halloween, I haven't had like a real Halloween in what like four years now.

00:02:51 Ah.

00:02:52 And and then you have like a Thanksgiving coming real soon as well?

00:02:57 Yeah yeah, a couple weeks. Yeah, everything seems jammed together this year for whatever reason even though

00:03:03 You have no idea I'm, missing everything from the phone.

00:03:07 Ah. Okay. Yeah I, mean in here it's just it's been like just heavy rain because of all the all the tropical storms going around in the Caribbean.

00:03:17 Yeah.

00:03:18 So yeah, you get like thirty minutes of that. Now, going back to the fundraising itself, um do you want to start with the questions we have? We can drop one, start a conversation out of it.

00:03:31 Sure. Yeah. Um we have a bunch of these questions. Some of them seem like they're for me, some of them seem like they're maybe probably for you. Uh the first one which I think has kind of been easing into uh just just our chat here is uh what does a typical work day look like for you and that is sort of understanding and acknowledging that there's no such thing really as typical.

00:03:54 Yeah, uh regular dates, weird you, know, things change from day to day But. I mean let's say in general, last last Friday for, example I I get up in the morning uh check on the site see, things, then I remember that Brandon is still online and we need to talk about the project some things we're working on So. I uh ping him start talking to him, you know, checking on what's the progress on some th on some stuff we, start talking about um schedules and how we're going to just some of the stuff because of personal needs. Then that's it. I go back to my day before actually starting and, the beginning of my Friday is always meeting with Kirk to go over the new website what we're doing, what are our next steps, and basically this week we wanted to talk about the server issues what we're going to do about those. Then after my call with him I check on the flags, start, checked catching up with the threats that are going on and also there are a few that you know I still want to I'm interested in seeing what's going on, 'cause I'm following them personally and while I do that I start catching up with flags then, with the flags I the next thing is catch up on emails when we have any catch up on any conversations I have going on. By the time I'm done with that already what a good hour and a half has happened then you have to do all the things that are not moderation related. So I go and start uh flagging payments and stuff as you know categorising them appropriately, looking into the timelines of projects at the same time that I am keeping an eye on what's flagged. Then if things get quiet, which this is personally my favourite part of the day is when, you are basically done with everything, you can go back to the site, keep catching up on the threads. But then there is this thing, I don't know if it ha if i if it happens to you, it happens to me all the time, which I guess is the A_D_ H_T_ plane, but there is like the meta filter uh rabbit hole for me which is when you go into a thread and you start seeing, c yeah you, know and, then someone says these comments that are like oh, how interesting who, are you? And then you check their profile and then you realise that they are things they have said and and you get actually interested in those things. To me it happens a lot, particularly when when people talk about their lives 'cause you know you don't get to experience who is what is being someone else.

00:06:32 Right, of course not.

00:06:35 things right, And so particularly on Friday there was this one about uh I might mispronounce this is some it's a it's an easy game The. Tetris game. There was this post about Tetris.

00:06:47 Uh-huh.

00:06:49 And so one of the first comments immediately was someone talking about their life and their experience and you know it's fascinating So. you start going down the rabbit hole and that sends you to other threads Interestingly. enough at, the same time it's quite a f quite a very useful thing 'cause you know but but at some point I start going back to other conversations that happen in the past. And for example on Friday specifically, there were there were a couple metatech threads that I was looking for. And they were just very very useful.

00:07:24 Like older ones or like people who are having conversation?

00:07:29 Yeah yeah yeah yeah. No I went back to a few meta type threads where I you know the thing is when you read them when the thread is happening some of the feedback you get and when you read it afterwards you get like a t you get to understand it differently and you know how to in hand site I think there are some things that have been said or feedback that we've been gotten that I'm like oh actually we I know we already track this I know we already have this but things have changed so you start seeing how we are in paths where you can start applying some of that at this point before probably we didn't have the we didn't have the r enough people for that or I didn't have enough bandwidth and then you start realizing maybe there are things we can do. I often watch shows like significantly after those shows have gone like live and but I like having people to talk to about those shows like you know I'm, like an old person who watches Saturday Night Live and I enjoy that show, but I'm like somewhat caught up on that so when I see the threads they're kind of happening now-ish whereas um like I just finished watching this show called dark matter, which is like a Canadian space opera kind of thing and it was so interesting because I wanted to know like what Meta-filter people had said about it, right? 'Cause I was interested in you know, that particular kind of nerd feedback And. and yet like it was so long ago, right, that we, uh you know, the threads were posted and like the last one was posted in two thousand and seventeen. The first one was like way back in two thousand fifteen. But like I still like there's almost a conversation going on I. mean not only because the threads are open and so I can like comment something in there myself, but also 'cause I recognise a lot of the names right, There are people who I still know on the site, and some who aren't you, know, some who aren't with us any more on the website, even though I believe they're with us uh on the planet, and it is it is fun sometimes to go back for me, that's my rabbit hole is at old fanfare threads for shows that I'm watching now but other people watched six years ago.

00:09:51 You know I actually use Frankfurt the other way around. I rarely watch T_V_ unless I find something on Frankfurt that I'm like oh what is this? The most reason I m recent I've actually get to see was this horror movie about a T_V_ show for kids. I'm terrible at describing movies but it's basically uh let me actually find the name 'cause it's Mister Crockett or something like that. And so just like this.

00:10:24 Yeah.

00:10:25 I am not a horror person so I'm sure I will not I will not know about it.

00:10:30 Yeah I remember it a few weeks ago they posted it I. saw just the artwork and I was like oh this is some weird stuff. And someone was interested I decided to watch it and to be honest I have one of my best friends watches horror movies all the time and he's the one who will tell you I've seen them all. You mentioned one movie he's seen it. And so I recommended this one and he was like this looks bad. He was amazed by it. And I was like I see you through the internet or

00:10:59 Yeah. Yeah and I mean I've seen particularly fanfare I would say it's where I get to choose what's next for me.

00:11:09 Interesting Yeah. I I mostly it's the opposite I, choose what's next based on other stuff and then come to Fanfare to sort of like check in and in fact, like, I'm it's funny like, in real life I'm not really much of a no spoilers person, but like if Fanfare has like a complete season of a show posted as one post, I will stay away from it just because I don't I don't wanna interact with other people sort of experiencing it, even though like that's fine If. that's

00:11:39 their thing uh, but yes not, not for me.

00:11:42 I have a very unpopular opinion when it comes to spoilers. I want them myself. Right? Respect everyone.

00:11:51 Yeah.

00:11:52 Yeah.

00:11:53 To me is the thing I I actually think in most cases I get to enjoy it more 'cause I'm worried about how it happens and what exactly happens.

00:12:01 Yeah.

00:12:03 Yeah so, I should actually love it. You can spoil me any time anyway.

00:12:11 Good. Good to know. I um I have this thing that happens like I read books a lot and a lot of times like Jim will like be interested in what I'm reading and he'll be like oh tell me what you're reading and I'll send him a link to like the Goodreads like uh synopsis of my book, but I don't read it. I don't read the synopsis. I don't want the synopsis. Like I just wanna experience the book and he's like ooh is it a romanticy? 'Cause he reads the synopsis and I'm like ah don't tell me like that means the two characters must get together I had no idea. And so a lot of times now I'll just it's l that's on me. Like I send him the link and then I'm like don't read it to me forget, it. So I just I send it to him after I'm done with the book now not, while I am sitting down just to see what the book's about.

00:13:03 the other one I have is so let me put it this way, I think at this point meta filter is the only remaining place in the internet where I can see people with very specific uh f interests that actually match mine 'cause you can go and read it right, And then I go into very specific ones and then by the time I realise it is like too general but then from every now and then I will find a post that is exactly this thing I'm obsessed with, particularly I think it happens a lot with science and people people post interesting sciencey things and so immediately I will go check like huh what are all the

00:13:45 things are you interested in. And then you end up having this experience which I mean I've had a couple we've had a couple calls with other members and one of the things I love is after reading from people that you get to enjoy how they write what they say and stuff like that and then you have them on a quick video call or something, I've seen this effect where you are like

00:14:10 like like fan boy into person you're meeting 'cause you're like oh finally I can put a face to to everything I've read from you and I think it makes both ways.

00:14:38 very shy person so I mean we've made up some yeah I mean after after the pandemic I ne I guess I never recover going back to normal it's like yeah I can plan going out and stuff but not so much I. mean right now what I do I'm I'm obsessed.

00:14:53 big thing Time. off if I have today for myself it means I will be in the garden garden planting stuff. I. was just talking to Jim about this yesterday about like how my house, before Covid, I think I had like two plants, um and now my house is just like oh, this is the room where I have my Fikeuses and my geraniums and over here is where all my Cactus are and my you know wandering, dudes and here is blah blah blah blah blah blah and uh it happened so suddenly I did not notice it was happening,

00:15:38 Um and it's only downstairs because those are the only rooms that like get a bunch of light and are the right temperature and I don't wanna carry like watering cans. But like yeah I've, become like that lady who mists her plants, which I think I've mentioned to like came to like a little mystified when did that happen, I don't know but, I enjoy it and I th I at least have a neighbourhood so I get out and about in my neighbourhood, I see my neighbours, but you know full, on full-on meet-ups I. went to the one down in Cambridge for the twenty fifth I had a great time. It was so great to see people I've, been seeing at meet-ups for fifteen years. Um but also it was a lot like other people travel and uh sometimes it's nice to just uh be in one place.

00:16:21 that's the other that's the other thing though. I mean I 'cause in other online communities I face the same thing, which is, cost we cannot so active for anything, you know, we're just five million people. So the thing is when I see uh pictures from meet-ups from, Meta-filter and everything, you get excited, right? But you I can't stop but feeling like an outsider 'cause I've never gotten to experience something like that.

00:16:50 Oh yeah.

00:16:52 I mean, of t of course again I joined in the middle of the pandemic right, None of that could have happened. Now let me go back to the thing about you know being excited when you know someone 'cause you've been readen reading them for a while right, So we have a question that I think it's perfect for this. That yep well, let me read it for you and probably you know what this is about 'cause I might not. So it says warning question. I've had a while for for an Sorry. Born in question I've had uh for a while now. Based on some half-remembered comments of Jasmine's, Jasmine could, you make a new post poststick on Wikipedia that should rightly qualify on a topic where there's an anti that topic Wiki team working against you while logged out without asking them for help from people you know from a sketchy I_P_ address?

00:17:51 and so I must have said something about this on social media, so basically it's like a Wikipedia question because like I'm mouthy about certain topics on social media and one of them is Wikipedia right, like, I I enjoy interacting with Wikipedia, I'm not obsessive about it, but it is like one of my like cold weather hobbies and one of the things I really like to do is make biographies of people who I think are notable. But the trick

00:18:21 this and the trick I find with Wikipedia generally and and and it's one of those things that works for me, it's not like I'm saying it would work for everybody is to like keep my head down a little bit about like 'cause there's lots of topics I care about right, and some of them are likely to be more controversial than others, even just like Wikipedia controversial right, like like political topics like I'm more anarchistic and there's a

00:18:51 lot of Wikipedia articles on anarchism but, there's also like a huge, fighty community of people surrounding the articles on anarchism and what I would like to do is get stuff done not, spend my whole time arguing, right. So I spend time making yeah, yeah, yeah. So I spend time making new articles a lot. However, some of this has a sort of because I'm me. So the article th uh the question loosely translated is if you weren't logged in and you were from some sketchy I_P_ address could, you make an article on a not notable person and have it quote unquote stick, meaning would it stick around and not be deleted by in the articles for deletion process. And I feel like the answer is probably but it's been so long since I've done something like that, because I've been on Wikipedia over twenty years twenty, years and a month, I think, as of today. And you, know, you kind of

00:19:50 Yeah. Like any web site you hang out with in for a long time, often you kind of build up privileges, right? Like Meta-filter's actually unusual in that you kinda don't Like. there are people with mod access and everyone else and, those are the two splits, right. I think the Steering Committee had some special access um when they were around um and I'm not sure if there's any other groups that do, but like a lot of other web sites they g know like if I'm if you're on Reddit, you might moderate a sub Reddit um and that would give you a different level of privileges from the people who run R Reddit who are engineers kind of you know like like uh Kirk Raja and Trimble obviously have a different level of access um but theoretically we could have access to that. So Wikipedia has like a lot of levels of stuff you could be you know you, can be a bureaucrat, you can be an administrator you, could be a uh I don't even know what these things are. And I've got like one level um because I've been there for a while uh which is just called auto-patrolled meaning that if I make a page about a person, I don't have to go through the articles for deletion process, it's just live on the website and it may be attract somebody's attention and maybe it doesn't. Whereas if you're not logged in, and you're coming from a sketchy I_P_ address, I'm not even sure what sketchy I_P_ means for the purposes of Wikipedia but, it mayb

00:21:23 Mm-hmm. Well, with the uh foundation. Yeah. And so yeah, as far as I know it's just um have this been used before to make edits consistently. If y if it's not not a match, it's just not gonna happen. But go on, please.

00:21:59 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh yeah.

00:22:15 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:22:39 Yeah.

00:22:53 like what yeah, I know, it's great. Uh I feel like it's a possibility, but I think still it has so much to do with like what it's about. I tend to write articles about women and about marginalised groups and about like if it's a white guy, it's a Jewish white guy. And I feel like those topics always get more attention from on Wikipedia. So I feel like I have even chances, but I don't feel like it would be a slam dunk I. wish I wish it would but like, man, I just I'm I'm actually working on an article on Wikipedia l like today about a woman who was like a model in like nineteen ten and she went through two divorces and it made all the newspapers, and the whole reason I found this out is, because my other job at um Flickr Commons there, was a picture of her at the library of Congress uploaded and there was somebody in the comments on Flickr that was like oh hey that's my grandmother. What And? so I was like well that's pretty interesting I wonder if she's got a Wikipedia page same, thing rabbit hole no Wikipedia page okay, it's cloudy outside. You know fuck it let's let's do it. Let's write something down.

00:24:18 Let me ask you a question 'cause here's the thing I mean I used to be in Wikipedia all the time creating articles and stuff like that but this is like back in two thousand ten right, It's been for me over ten years that I don't really touch Wikipedia. The main reason for me was I got tired if there are heated conversations I th I think Wikipedia gets a medal for how harsh it can get.

00:24:43 Yeah. Beep up skin.

00:24:46 Go ahead.

00:24:48 No no my question is how has it been for you 'cause for me it was back then fourteen years ago it was like I could it's people get too extreme in what they say and I just I'm not here for it.

00:25:05 Yeah, I, again like, I said in in the areas that I tend to interact in, there's like libraries there's, usually less fewer people who wanna have an argument. But one of the things I will like dive into and actually get kinda scrappy about is like people's pronouns, right? Like I have written a bunch of articles on, you know, trans activists and Wikipedia actually has, as an some very good guidelines on how to use people's pronouns, not an, you know maybe previous name like, not everyone agrees with them but there is a project like Wikipedia, LGBTQ plus, and they have hammered out what they think are pretty good guidelines, but that doesn't mean like shitheads don't show up and try to go into articles and try to change pronouns like non-stop, right. I found that what's really useful from sort of my perspective is just this really dogged, boring like change it back, make a complaint Change. it back make, a complaint. Change it back get, semi-protected status on the page. get that other person in trouble for, you know disruptive, editing like, I'm not mad but, I'm also absolutely not stopping with this and, I won't engage, like like I won't like there's no sense in fighting with people about it. Like they're wrong. The policy says they're wrong. We're just gonna I don't care what they think, it doesn't in this case it, does not matter what they think, there's a policy and, we're gonna enact a policy and, the policy itself is, I think decently good. And so a lot of times and I don't get involved in sort of larger Wikipedia admin shit except to like support like thumbs up people doing the good work that I don't do because it's not my like it's not my primary sort of uh you know activist pro activist application. But I do find just like being very like sort of flat and like yep I'm gonna undo that I'm. gonna report you.

00:27:22 I'm gonna undo it.

00:27:22 Yeah, for me what, it is do, happen all the time, every time when I was doing that. So what I started doing was, if there's an article in English for something that it's tied to, you know the, person is from a Spanish speaking country but, there is an article in English and not in Spanish, so I would go ahead and start making the article in Spanish, stuff like that But.

00:27:46 Mm.

00:27:51 understand, right? I would try to do that so that it's in several languages. And then the thing is you, know, the process. Like if there's mm if there's already an article that has everything in another language, you will take the references and stuff from there and you will create, the article. So what used to happen to me is immediately, as soon as I create anything, you know, people have opinions on how this should be how sh you should write about this and start making edits where it's like you, see them editorializing right, And that's where it starts. And then getting the page locked is not the easiest thing. I mean there's a process for it. And so uh I mean I did it for like what, a couple of years and no I, just didn't have the energy.

00:28:39 a lot and you have to really decide it's your main thing. And one of the things that I think is the sort of the biggest negative attribute of Wikipedia I, mean, I guess too right, one of them is just you know the community over time I think I mean like many communities over time has gotten a little more like itself um honestly like that some of the negative attributes that like uh were m bigger deals on Wikipedia fifteen years ago, they kind of never worked on because it's hard to do community in a thing where like everybody's volunteer. And then I just think the second thing is there's just too much reading. Like it's for hyper literate, hyper verbal people, nothing wrong with that, but it does mean it's it becomes exclusive to those people who can read quickly who, can synthesise quickly, who can reply quickly and they have a tendency to sort of dominate those conversations and those disputes. And it can get really time-wasty, you know. Um because it's just like here's a wall of

00:29:48 Okay.

00:29:48 here's a wall of text about this and you're just like yeah I'm just trying to move on from this topic so that I can do my next thing with some people. Yeah. Exactly.

00:30:00 it's several and you're like

00:30:17 Yeah. when do I catch up with this? Come on I, just can't. It's something I enjoyed doing but it's not something I can do with the other stuff.

00:30:25 Well and there's a lot of kind of other fun st fun I listen to me but like there's a whole bunch of like like typo clean-up and like sometimes if I just wanna like disconnect my brain and do something that I think is useful, I'll just work on a project that isn't writing an article, you know what I mean Like? I enjoy creating articles just 'cause I think it's fun, but like sometimes I just like fixing typos and having a machine kind of serve me typos and be like yeah yeah yeah.

00:30:54 of what I still do which is if if I'm reading Wikipedia again Wikipedia it's one of those places where there is a rabbit hole you know like in spend a hour there. Yeah and so I'm always logged in and when I see something that should be corrected I will correct it but you know like actually drafting an entire a article on something I'm interested in that it's still not there, no that time it's gone long gone for me.

00:31:22 Absolutely get it. Okay let's uh move on to um let's talk about uh basically we've got two questions that are kind of near each other, that are both about the you know the idea of paid moderation and sort of its necessity, number one, and its costs, so one of these questions I kind of lobbed to you 'cause I was like I'm not a hundred percent sure I have this number but um a question about um how much money would the site need to raise monthly uh to bring the site back to full time So you could start with the easy math question and then uh go on to the more common question.

00:32:26 Okay.

00:32:27 Yeah, we let's cover go Let's. cover the numbers first. When it comes to the numbers uh I have known the numbers since we have the schedule the way we have it, which is about five thousand four hundred dollars per month.

00:32:44 Just to complete it.

00:32:47 Mm-hmm.

00:32:48 Charing thing at that.

00:32:49 extra five f five thousand four hundred per month would allow us to cover to have twenty four seven coverage That. being said. Personally I would never think that that's an investment I would want to make. 'Cause I think we should probably move to something that's more data informed you, know what I mean? Side activity is it's entirely different. You don't want people twenty four seven on in the website What. you don't want to happen is when something happens you don't have a

00:33:19 anyone to take a look at it. So I think it's different goals right, Like twenty four seven moderation I don't think it's the goal we should have. I think enough coverage and things working in a way where it's indistinguishable from that it's more ideal than than just cover everything just because.

00:33:39 Yeah.

00:33:41 well, and we've definitely had like trend lines where we can see kind of when people are really active on the site when, our email comes in on the site I was putting together uh some paperwork for the new entity over the last month and so I spent some time with my head down in the statistics, you know doing kind of sight evaluation stuff which, is sort of ridiculous but necessary And. there really are kind of pockets of time when people are in around and it's interesting how they've changed over time. Like you and I have talked about this, right? Like Friday afternoons used to always be dead and now they're only sometimes dead. And so we've adjusted a little bit, you've adjusted a little bit to to take that into account. But there's probably other affordances in that that we could that we could do and then the money you can spend on other things basically.

00:34:32 Mm-hmm.

00:34:40 Oh yeah.

00:34:41 Because the thing is right now we do run numbers right, Which is get the data from the site, uh take the C_S_V_ file, analyze the data, do stuff like that right, I mean at this point with better technology you can just have a dashboard where you are seeing data real time rather than picking up the spreadsheet. You know those two things would inform us better That. being said um decide without moderation Let. me I've, been thinking through this for a long time, but particularly over the weekend I was thinking, and is right now if you change moderation the, way it is is such a key component of what MetaFilter is and how it works, that I don't think you can expect MetaFilter to be the same thing if you were to change it overnight, right?

00:35:31 Yeah.

00:35:33 Now, regardless of that, I do think, and my goal, what I think it should be, I think that we all hope for and work towards is we want the meta-filter where meta-filter is better off, point blank period, right? It's way it's doing better, and I think that allows if we have we can get to a point where you can of course rethink moderation, you can re-think how it works, what who like you know there are a lot of changes that we can make over time. And when I say we, I mean we as a community, not the I_V_C_ Yeah. not you and me.

00:36:14 Right. And my only recommendation was I don't think we should touch anything regarding moderation right away just because you know that's like the main thing the site as a business has been doing for a while. It's you know, th you would be disrupt in the site in many ways. And then my main main thing is I think part of the beauty of meta filter is if you go to any other site, like a lot of transphobia is the first thing that comes to my mind, but a lot of people who have terrible ideas start flooding sites just because they know what kind of conversations are going on. Here that's doesn't happen. I mean literally I saw a spam post today and I was like uh spam here.

00:37:23 We see them so rarely yes,

00:37:26 here and I mean we do see it, but the thing is we do see them when they sign up immediately the email you look at it and you know so they get banned. You know it was one of those people who flew under the radar they actually made a couple comments that were just to be able to post. And so you know those things that exists those, things don't happen because we have a system in place and so it's not when you think about moderation we're talking about the systems the, people the, eyes a lot of different components that I think make metafilter what it is to a certain degree of course I mean what the most important thing it's actually the content itself and what members bring to the table.

00:38:09 Right, opinion.

00:38:12 Yeah my opinion is that um it would be it's hard to imagine a change like that overnight and expecting things not to be very different. And I don't think they would be better honestly.

00:38:27 Yeah I mean I think like we definitely have you know gotten feedback from time to time like rrr why don't you why don't you do it a different way why, don't you not pay people why, don't you you know what about how Reddit does it and one of the things I have always liked about metafilter is that like again, this I mean, I've had my head down in paperwork for the last couple of weeks just looking at what MetaFilter actually is for talking about you know when it when it transfers over to the MetaFilter community foundation. And one of the things that was like a really big deal is we've got people who have been working on the site, looking at the site, reading the site who work for the site, who have jobs, who have been for a decade, right Multiple. people who have been there for a very long time and they just have a sense of the community in a way that I think is pretty difficult to find anywhere else, right. I mean I think what we what we would like is for those people to feel like they could be a little bit more interactive uh uh you know as, moderators without feeling like they're gonna you know get a laser beam focus of attention on them in a negative way.

00:39:48 But I do think that like just the longevity of staff like we've been paying people to do good work of moderation for I mean I, don't know, since whenever I started getting paid in two thousand five right, like twenty years of paying people to do community work all of those people also exist on the larger internet where they can help people be better community members in my opinion, right, so you know, as we see people like migrating off of off of X_ you know, Twitter to Mastodon or to Blue Sky or to th even threads. Like other places, the people who w do the community work on Metafilter who, have had jobs, have a lot of like learned experience and then even the people who have come through the community as community members like, not every experience is necessarily good or perfect, but I think overarchingly they understand what community to kind of mean to a community, and they can bring that into the larger world, right Um? which actually kind of tees off into um this this next question if if if you're okay for moving on for this question. Um uh where um uh uh the personal okay. I was looking at yeah this, th well yeah you know which one I'm talking about it's, not the one about duck size horses or horse sized duck

00:41:18 which I figured we'll wrap up with.

00:41:19 So what it says is the mods on MetaFilter have been historically pretty great Some. of the smartest internet people have some of the smart smartest internet people have pointed to Meta to MetaFilter as a place where conversation was model reigned back into useful range. I've uh I've heard you say that it was hard, I've seen it and I believe it. Can you tell me about moments where you drew the line that really made a difference? Thank you s sincerely for all you do.

00:41:54 Yeah, I mean you know the example that was given was like from a long time ago now, but was when uh you know Metafilter had sort of even more of a sort of cishet male slant I, guess than, it used to and, a lot of people, if you'd post something about like an accomplishment about uh I mean I'm only sort of retelling this just 'cause I think there's a whole new b new bunch of Metafilter people who may not know these these old timer stories, but uh you know anytime, you'd post like an sort of a some female presenting or woman person. Basically, you'd get a whole bunch of like maybe she's a scientist right, maybe she's a athlete, maybe she's uh the octogenarian who did something not notable you, get like these lazy comments in MetaFilter being like, oh I'd hit that you, know like, l L_O_L_ L_O_L_, and and it was just so tiresome, right, like I i in

00:42:54 In in another community uh where I spend a lot of time, Malt Shop um, sorry milkshake, Malt Shop, Malt Shop I, can never remember it, became one and it started the other. Uh Malt Shop, god it's so bad Um. in another community uh one of the things that is is not my optimal community because, I always feel it's it's important to think about what your idealized community is, but it's also important to understand you're to get that because you are in community with a bunch of other people who have different idealized communities, right. And what you do is you try to get one that's the best compromise between most people to the extent that you can but also lay down the law in some ways, right. And so the I'd hit that comments on early meta-filter I, just had it right, and Matt lovely boss but like kinda didn't understand what the problem was at the time Like. I I mean he got it. But he was all kinda like meh and I was like no, I hate it. I have to work here I. hate it um, what can we do. And so you know we launched this sort of idiot contest where I said I would change my username to um cooter which is uh sort of slang for female genitalia and for pe anybody who doesn't know uh if we went thirty days without somebody saying I'd hit that on the And what that wound up doing was it turned it into a little bit of a community project, and it also became sort of a community awareness project, right? Like a lot of people, probably, if it didn't bother them, didn't notice, that there was always people showing up saying it every month, forever, you know And. so what I was saying about Molchop is, it's kind of a more of an image sharing web site kind of a very small like almost Instagram-ish thing A. lot of people that came from Medifilter or some other sort of websites we don't talk about uh But there's a lot of kind of like oh hey here's a picture of a woman in her underwear, and like cool I guess, like I guess I appreciate pictures of women in their underwear uh but I'm also like I could also look at myself in a mirror and I guess I'm not twenty four years old but like there's there's a sense in which there was a very male feeling gaze about it and, you know, we have kind of an NSFW filter. And so the only thing we would sort of do me and one of the other women who like there's not even any moderation, they're almost but, like we can delete things if we have to is we would always turn on the NSFW filter, even if it's just like kind of a woman with her ass showing looking at herself in the mirror. Because it is very male-gasey and maybe if you don't feel like it that day, you don't have to look at it. right, Like don't get me wrong like, I'm pro like you know pro all the stuff like you know let your freak flag fry like pornography is not necessarily an issue I. just in the knowing the my community.

00:46:09 Yeah.

00:46:13 But it but it's an inherently interesting interest.

00:46:18 Exactly.

00:46:21 is just this kind of like half-dressed young woman kind of thing. And and also especially for like you know guys my age I'm a little bit like eh.

00:46:28 Yeah.

00:46:43 Oh my God Yeah.

00:46:49 Right. Well that's the sound that yeah and that happens exactly 'cause 'cause things change right, And when you decide what is acceptable and what not you, know it's, not about the rules it, it's about how you start changing the way in which you can express things without having to mm treat someone like an object implicitly or wi what you know it's, it's it's a human-dissenter kind of thing.

00:47:19 Mm-hmm. What comes to my mind for example is I don't want to go over specific examples in the recent time but to me there was this case that was in present to see which was back in the twenty sixteen elections I had like I wasn't here at meta filter right, But one of the things I remember is there was this site um Yarnify have, you heard about it?

00:47:47 Yarnify.

00:47:49 Yarnify.

00:47:56 Yarnify with Y. It's why is my internet so slow Let? me throw it in the chat.

00:48:03 Nope I, found it. Is is it a yarn store?

00:48:06 Uh no it's, actually a community for people who actually like doing stuff with yard and like the yarn and you know.

00:48:16 Ah. Well uh you know most in most cases it's in most cases it's it's it's a community of mostly women as far as I know and so one of my closest friends she's, from Costa Rica but living in Europe she was there all the time. And she reached out to me, so just to tell me how proud she was, that they were banning any content supporting Trump, and you know it's not because it's Trump it's, because uh anything advancing an agenda that it's transphobic against women rights and any of that should not be tolerated. And so she was proud then, I saw it in the news, I was like s it was one of those moves that you are like this is a type of moderation change as I want to see. And then when I was going through my training, I remember mentioning that to Josh the Cortex. And he was like, wow oh interesting. And then he tells me he actually got to talk to them like, they they reached out they wanted feedback on what are the changes he would propose, or or you know, what suggestions he had from what they were the issues they were facing. And the thing is the reflection Jod uh Josh has had back then was like to me it was interesting 'cause we didn't have that at all going on You. know you, have people saying things that are not okay, but like openly supporting Trump. No, you won't see that Why. does that happen Well? 'cause you've made it clear it wasn't a policy decision, it's the p underlying policies and small decis decisions that you make.

00:49:58 That overtime make it so that this is not gonna happen here, right? And that to me is important.

00:50:04 Well and again going harping back on the same thing like like uh you know policies on misgendering, right? You just have a policy, it's not okay, we're we're just implementing the policy, we're not gonna argue about it, we're just telling you that's how it is.

00:50:20 Mm-hmm.

00:50:23 Mm-hmm. like I I I really put that at your feet that you helped really put a lot of that together with Josh and everything else. But like I I I see your heart in it in a lot of ways if, that makes sense. Um that having having clear policies and being willing to enforce them right, 'Cause y you see a lot of sites with like codes of conduct, but then they don't they don't do anything. And being willing to enforce them and like talk about them too point and then maybe not, even though it's very difficult to sort of talk about that, because it's awkward to be like, look, we'll argue with you about this a little bit or have a conversation with you about this but after a while the site is the way it is on certain topics. you, know speak, for yourself not, for others, we don't do that ironic racism thing here I. mean that was a big one that took a while for people to sort of get their head around, right That. you can't make a joke as if you're using the voice of not you and, that joke that voice is saying something shitty, but you it it's not something you would say you're just um satirizing the awful people who would say that, but if you bring

00:51:45 And you're just throwing up the notes.

00:51:54 Yeah, like having big pull quotes about people terrorising other people can itself be kind of re-traumatising to communities for whom that kind of stuff happens a lot, right You? see it in social media a lot, like don't share videos of cops being terrible beyond a certain point, like that's why we have content warnings, that's why we have, etcetera etcetera. But those are hard lines to draw because people don't care for them, like lines in a lot of cases, a lot of people who find that they're they feel that they're humorous, and some kind of a human accurate, and some kind of scary, and other human formation, and then you go through the steps and it's different I, think you don't know, it's like this is what we're talking about right now isn't, it? It's like, this is this is what we're talking about, and some sort of a human goal, and some sort of a uh a nn or something like that, something that's kind of like a human-y thing, kind of like the human-y thing. So I mean I, think when you look at a human- adversaries, you'll see, what we're trying to do, and what our human body does, and what our human body has done, and we're selling it. So I mean we're trying to find ways to create that sort of a human-based solution, but that kind of idea, which I don't know, the thing that's a human-based question, because it's not that you're wrong. Like even the the user's sort it you know isn't well represented on meta filter or barely represented on meta filter.

00:53:04 Which is the thing I mean at the end of the day I personally don't like like rules and guidelines and and I know how people want s a specific set of rules, but at the end of the day I mean there are things that y you can write as many rules and they will not make up for some other things that to me are more important like for example asking yourself who's the part of the joke? Are they here to defend themselves? No. Then why are we doing this? In no way this is it.

00:53:36 Yeah.

00:53:52 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

00:53:58 Yeah.

00:54:18 And it's it's tricky. I mean I I don't mean to say it's not. But thinking about the difference between those things and finding some space between them can sometimes help people you, know, interact with a community in a way that's a little bit more pro-social.

00:54:33 And I think that's one of the beauties of meta-filter itself which is It's one of those places where I feel where I've seen several times like anger. Yes lots, of anger. But productive and organised anger, right? There are ways to channel what you're going through and what you're feeling in positive ways for everyone around you and, and yeah, I do think that yes, there is a component of policies, but a bigger component is how we together as a community start reacting towards those things. The example you put is perfect 'cause it's one of those things that uh changing your user name how, can that change behaviour Well? I mean look at the site today That's. a proof I guess.

00:55:17 Yeah? You know a little bit. So do you wanna look at this last question which is uh I don't know if it's uh at all serious but I do feel like uh philosophical questions are always uh good ones Uh. I will ask you but then I'm sure I have my own opinion on it too. Luke would you rather fight one hundred duck sized horses or one horse size duck?

00:55:44 Yeah.

00:55:47 I'm not a fighter either.

00:55:53 Yeah but give me a hundred uh duck sized horses and I'm gonna try to keep them pet them and love them forever 'cause they should be so cute.

00:56:03 So cute.

00:56:05 Right I. mean of course it's that thing that with any animal if you you don't know what they mean until you have them in front of you. You know what I mean like yeah a hundred horses you can duck sized sounds pew beautiful and pretty but having them in real life of course I don't know how I would react. But in theory they sound cute beautiful, and I want them all hundred of them with me.

00:56:30 I have neighbors who have ducks and even having ten duck sized ducks seems like a lot. I mean I am definitely the same. Like if forced to fight probably I'd go for fighting the horse sized duck only 'cause it's one thing and not a hundred things um and also I'm you know

00:56:50 Yeah.

00:56:56 so one bigger one I'd be like alright alright uh but yeah exactly I would just rather kind of have a pet and not fight any animal.

00:57:09 Mm-hmm.

00:57:33 But now my question is I think no one has paid across the years so much attention and so much love as you. I mean right now you're everything you're doing it's just because of the love you have. So my question is how do you feel about the future and the current state of the site?

00:57:57 I mean concerned but optimistic you know. Um like the things that concern me about the larger world concern me a little bit about meta-filter right, I feel like there's a little bit of um I don't even know the right way to put it but, kind of roughness of discourse you know, that people feel it's okay to be less cool in interacting with other people that they nominally care about than I feel works in a sort of community setting like, I feel like in many cases y I look sometimes at like angry conversations on meta-filter whether they're on meta-filter or meta-talk or whatever and I'm like, would you talk to that person like that in real life? and like maybe Maybe. they would right, Like d, people are different, right. But I also feel like when I was putting together kind of a list of like the things the things that are important about MetaFilter and the things that are sort of unique and special about MetaFilter and especially comparing that list of like what's unique and special about MetaFilter to other websites um that I've watched sort of unravel or implode or whatever. And the fact that I still personally go there to like sort of see what's up, I don't participate in as many of the sort of the political conversations but, I've definitely come back to ask MetaFilter over the last like month, because I could sort of see the fact that I'm gonna be wrapping up sort of my paperwork and legal aspect of my interaction and then I can just go back to being a community member which I'm kinda desperate for because I miss it so much and I feel like the money stuff is but I also feel like with a team of sort of dedicated people, like we saw the good work that the steering committee did like several years now um and I I feel like that can that can still happen right, I feel like that could happen again, I feel like people can come together and like work on the money stuff, I feel like we are leaving the new entity in a really solid position, like big thanks to you and the team and everyone else.

01:00:16 Yeah.

01:00:18 And I feel like we're seeing a resurgence of people wanting to get back to the old web, right. They wanna get back to a time before corporations owned all of their content and you know sold it to A_I_ companies which I we have not done by the way I. mean obviously the content is public on the internet so it's kind of there for them but, like we definitely haven't done that And. I feel like there options. And I feel like there's value in knowing people and in being part of community. Especially now, especially like in the U_S_ and other places where there have been sort of recent events that are really concerning, having people who are resourceful and having people who know you and having people who who who can hold space for you and listen for you and and answer your questions about like whatever your thing is, whether it's something uh hyper specific or or really global Uh. I think still is gonna always have a place and I think finding ways to support that and make that work are things that we can all do and honestly I look forward to continuing to be involved even when I'm not the person who's sort of signing the paperwork and filing the taxes. In fact I'm looking even more forward to being involved not, being that person and getting to sort of just be jes m on the website again.

01:01:49 Yeah.

01:02:04 an admission it was an adorn for your browser called StumbleUpon and you would click on it and it would take you to a level. It was the most beautiful thing ever to me at least and, so I stumbled upon Metafilter like all the time with that tool and it was like I, started to pay attention I, started to like it and then you know uh as things happen you uh stop checking the sites, then a few years later you come back and and it was always one of these things that I loved when uh I joined and I created my profile. I totally forgot I had created one 'cause the thing is I used PayPal like twice in my life hated, it didn't come back to it. And so well the thing is I realised I had an account I, no longer wanted it I, preferred this one and since then since I joined the site with my new account like I started like liking well not like in favourite but I started doing that Yeah.

01:03:04 however you wanna call it at this point. I started doing that for the first time ever like a couple months ago 'cause you know it's, my moderator account, so that I'm not but then you find yourself actually reading and actually want to come back to this, right?

01:03:20 Right.

01:03:21 So the thing is, as much as I've never been like a member member you, know I've been a worker and I've been a moderator. Uh the thing that actually gets to me the, thing that makes it makes me care about it so much it's, actually it it's very tied to the corporate part and it's you go to Facebook right now I. the last time I went to Facebook at this point I just used it 'cause it has marketplace and sometimes I need to get stuff and here we don't have correct lists as much. So anyway you go you find something that it's not even not okay. It's like you know calling for violence to a demographic that it's vulnerable already and so you flag that. Yeah. It takes for them a week to get back to you and to say what's wrong with that.

01:04:11 Right. Awful.

01:04:13 And and you realise that these things don't happen because the human at the other side disagrees with what you probably reported reporting What. happens at the end of the day is this are the consequences of something run by a company right, They care about shareholder value they, care about o other interests, as long as you're using it at the site as, long as activity it's going up, they don't care about your mental state, they don't care about this course and, they don't care about so many things that to me. are critical. Here I actually see it the other way around, where it's like yes moderation can be good and w anything you want, but also you see members actually driving the conversations in a more positive way or trying to avoid certain things. All of that I would I cherish that like cold at this point, 'cause it's gone, it's long gone, and I'm of the generation who actually had hopes for the internet and then private investment and companies just fucked everything. That's the way I see it.

01:05:18 Right Ext. extracted value from it, yes.

01:05:20 Yeah. So it's one of those few places where you can still it feels entirely different for a reason. I mean it's not only the quirky technology and stuff like that. It's it's entirely different place to what we have left in the other places.

01:05:37 Yeah. I I feel exactly the same line. Well that's that's a good spot to wrap up I think. Also I need to go walk with my friend and her dog fairly shortly.

01:05:45 We have one last thing which is the gal ad though. And it's done. You want to see the pictures?

01:05:53 Yeah I wanna see the pictures. Wait are we gonna be on camera?

01:05:57 We can I mean you can turn your camera off I. do. Do you save?

01:06:06 I do.

01:06:08 Okay perfect, So let me show you what we get 'cause we gotta pick three winners. So first we have let's see. These are the three categories we're going to judge Spooky. as simple.

01:06:24 So first one we have from Fraser as Harry from this coalition.

01:06:35 Do you know what this is?

01:06:36 Yes I know. And I think it's

01:06:39 Can you t can you tell me?

01:06:41 Yeah it's literally uh let me show you real quick the picture.

01:06:47 Ah.

01:06:48 'Cause if you said it's from a T_V_ show so if you said you lu real you recognise it.

01:06:57 Okay.

01:06:59 So let me hold the

01:07:03 It does seem simple but whether it is effective.

01:07:06 Yeah and you'll realise when you see it. Okay now I can show you. In all honesty I had to Google it myself but, this is the character right here.

01:07:41 Oh yeah I get it.

01:07:51 The open shirt the necktie it's basically I mean it's very effective. So that's not that it's used in exactly the same yeah.

01:07:59 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh so wait it's a video game it's not even a T_V_ show.

01:08:08 Yeah that was my mistake sorry.

01:08:10 No no no that's good I'm just uh just catching up.

01:08:14 Yeah then from funny me uh it wasn't the actual costume but I found it small. You know this is exactly what I am missing from being in the U_S_ for this part of the year. Like seeing people get creative and do stuff like that here doesn't get like that.

01:08:33 No.

01:08:35 Then let me show you the next one. I didn't get the reference but seeing all the little details in the actual costume I love it.

01:08:51 I love it. So it says this is my costume contest entry hack by Li Lymanaire.

01:08:59 Yep. And then we have this one I. do get the reference of Nightmare Before Christmas perfectly. Uh yep. And you can see the little girl dressed as uh I always forget what the name of the co-protagonist is you, know the, girl.

01:09:24 Yes yes yes.

01:09:25 Yeah. And then we have from dirty old town this.

01:09:33 Oh my God. I I showed up on the company team's call in my Michael Myers mask and jumpsuit and sat perfectly still and silent. I love it. It's terrifying.

01:09:47 Yeah I, mean I saw it and I was like oh I was not ready for this. And then for from Duck on the Moon.

01:09:58 Hey. I love it. That's that's Brian who used to live in Vermont actually.

01:10:05 Oh see, that's the beauty of it. You do know peop I love that.

01:10:10 Yes. Brian I've met in person I'm not I don't remember I believe I've met Mike Athlondi in person. Uh and I think I think the other folks I have not.

01:10:21 Yeah.

01:10:26 Yeah that's, cool.

01:10:30 You do get the reference of Magnum right, Of course you do.

01:10:33 Yes.

01:10:35 So time to pick winners. Before we even go back to anyone which, one would you say is the spookiest?

01:10:46 Dirty old town spookiest. And down.

01:10:52 Mm-hmm.

01:10:54 And can you imagine that on a sim call?

01:10:58 No. I just don't yeah don't want to say it. Now effective which, one did you think is the most effective one?

01:11:09 I don't even know what effective means. So this is like simple but effective?

01:11:16 Yeah.

01:11:18 Like I really like how simple disco Elysium is and yet I didn't understand the reference which is probably on me and, Magnum I get because also Magnum was in my era and then Magnum is also in the current era.

01:11:41 For me it would be Magnum with a like disco Elysium as second only because I'm me and I get the older person reference more than the younger person reference and I don't do video games as much.

01:11:53 Well let me call it the way I see it you were able to recognize Magnum right away. It's not even the same same shirt. It just looks close enough you know. Yeah. Yeah like this is right on point. You know exactly what it is.

01:12:10 It's a mustache and a baseball cap basically. It wouldn't even have to be any of the rest of the outfit.

01:12:14 Which I mean Tom Selleck's mustache is a bit you know like bigger I would probably have tried props or something but no you get the reference immediately.

01:12:23 Yes.

01:12:24 Okay. And now we have our last one which we need to pick. So overall which one do you like the most out of them?

01:12:39 I always like a good costume that wraps in a little kid. So for me I would go with my goth laundry because there's like the little kid with the red-headed wig in it.

01:12:51 I I mean I love the costumes were they actually much. So I think it's amazing.

01:12:57 Which is not to say I did not also enjoy Bad Scientist the black dress that I didn't know what it was which is I'm sure on me um Disco Elysium and uh which one am I forgetting?

01:13:12 Yeah. Let's see.

01:13:15 Oh and and Funnehmee's front yard with the with the the little laser pointer on the uh

01:13:24 You have the dinosaur yeah that one is amazing.

01:13:45 Cool. So we have three winners for all three of you you will be getting a message from me and we'll be getting you a copy of our cookbook and a copy of I'll give you options 'cause we are going to have before we work with the p pet tax wall we were going to create just the poster but now we're gonna have it in different presentations like you can get it on a mug you can get it on different things so I'm gonna reach out to you to pick your actual price. I think a pet tax wall mug would actually be pretty neat.

01:14:18 I actually I think I'm gonna get one.

01:14:21 It's You know it's it's actually the thing is um Meta-filter will remain in my heart it it forever and it's one of those things that it's it's nice to keep something physical right,

01:14:40 Yeah. Yeah I have my meta-filter mug that I bought during the initial like last fundraiser that Josh did and uh yes I I I almost don't drink coffee out of it because I don't want it to like get shattered and then have me be like oh my God.

01:14:58 So um this is it we've, made it.

01:15:05 Fantastic do we wanna have an official wrap-up where I say hey Luke thank you so much for joining me on this podcast I'm glad we finally got it together and it's always great to see you and uh get to talk to you.

01:15:17 It was a pleasure and for anyone watching thank you for your time and for listening. [music] And make sure you're subscribed before you get emailmet.